Should panda German Shepherds be recognized by AKC

Do you think panda shepherds should be recognized as a AKC/CKC official coat color? What about other nonstandard coat colors?

murph said:

Do you think panda shepherds should be recognized as a AKC/CKC official coat color? What about other nonstandard coat colors?

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That's definitely an interesting question! It's a fun topic because there is definitely a lot of things to consider!

In my opinion, it would be hard to fit them into the current standard for conformation shows. The classic GSD standard heavily faults or disqualifies white markings, and the Panda pattern's large white spots are just too far outside that traditional aesthetic for me. Historically, the visual standard is non-negotiable for the show ring, which is why I'm a little iffy on them, they just don't look shepherd to me compared to the rich colors

However, I think there is a strong middle ground regarding registration. I think having the Panda pattern on the registerable color list would be good, just like White, Blue, Liver, etc., are listed, but in the breed standard for conformation shows, it's stated as either unfavorable or disqualifying.

I believe this would be the best path forward because It's was a natural genetic mutation, the first Panda Shepherd was proven to be purebred, the AKC already recognizes other non-standard colors on its registration list, and registration would allow Panda Shepherds to compete in AKC event where color is irrelevant (agility, rally, ect)

The panda pattern does not fit the breed standard of the German Shepherd Dog. That being said, the GSD seen at AKC/UKC shows is so far removed from what the breed is supposed to be it really wouldn't matter at this point.

The German Shepherd has fallen so far that nearly every version of the dog I see out in public is a poorly bred example of the breed - at best. Reddit is full of disasterious examples of the dog.

Over sized, walking on their hocks, block heads, horrible hips and joint health, shallow chests, no drive, extra long coats, sloped backs, weak nerves and so on.

If you doubt me, I suggest you give Louis Donald a follow on Facebook. He is, without question, the breed expert and covers this topic extensively.

The split in the breed happened while Von Stephanitz was still alive and he lamented it publicly more than once.

At its core, the GSD is a robust, healthy, working dog built for power and purpose. It's a crying shame what's happened to this dog.

MyDogBitz said:

The panda pattern does not fit the breed standard of the German Shepherd Dog. That being said, the GSD seen at AKC/UKC shows is so far removed from what the breed is supposed to be it really wouldn't matter at this point.

The German Shepherd has fallen so far that nearly every version of the dog I see out in public is a poorly bred example of the breed - at best. Reddit is full of disasterious examples of the dog.

Over sized, walking on their hocks, block heads, horrible hips and joint health, shallow chests, no drive, extra long coats, sloped backs, weak nerves and so on.

If you doubt me, I suggest you give Louis Donald a follow on Facebook. He is, without question, the breed expert and covers this topic extensively.

The split in the breed happened while Von Stephanitz was still alive and he lamented it publicly more than once.

At its core, the GSD is a robust, healthy, working dog built for power and purpose. It's a crying shame what's happened to this dog.

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Agreed. Theres a lady online who always tries to “disprove the roach back” but her dog just doesnt look right… even when he isnt in a stack, despite her insistence. Ohmygsds is her name on FB. It makes me sad to see dogs like this because they can hardly walk by age 7. However, my shepherd isnt exactly in standard either (85lbs and lean, abnormally tall lol), but at least she is very healthy! (We also didn’t get her straight from a breeder, she was a rehome.)

MalikethGSD said:

That's definitely an interesting question! It's a fun topic because there is definitely a lot of things to consider!

In my opinion, it would be hard to fit them into the current standard for conformation shows. The classic GSD standard heavily faults or disqualifies white markings, and the Panda pattern's large white spots are just too far outside that traditional aesthetic for me. Historically, the visual standard is non-negotiable for the show ring, which is why I'm a little iffy on them, they just don't look shepherd to me compared to the rich colors

However, I think there is a strong middle ground regarding registration. I think having the Panda pattern on the registerable color list would be good, just like White, Blue, Liver, etc., are listed, but in the breed standard for conformation shows, it's stated as either unfavorable or disqualifying.

I believe this would be the best path forward because It's was a natural genetic mutation, the first Panda Shepherd was proven to be purebred, the AKC already recognizes other non-standard colors on its registration list, and registration would allow Panda Shepherds to compete in AKC event where color is irrelevant (agility, rally, ect)

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I think this is a very reasonable answer

NormanisEm said:

Agreed. Theres a lady online who always tries to “disprove the roach back” but her dog just doesnt look right… even when he isnt in a stack, despite her insistence. Ohmygsds is her name on FB. It makes me sad to see dogs like this because they can hardly walk by age 7. However, my shepherd isnt exactly in standard either (85lbs and lean, abnormally tall lol), but at least she is very healthy! (We also didn’t get her straight from a breeder, she was a rehome.)

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I'm right there with you. Murphy is 100 lbs.

MyDogBitz said:

The panda pattern does not fit the breed standard of the German Shepherd Dog. That being said, the GSD seen at AKC/UKC shows is so far removed from what the breed is supposed to be it really wouldn't matter at this point.

The German Shepherd has fallen so far that nearly every version of the dog I see out in public is a poorly bred example of the breed - at best. Reddit is full of disasterious examples of the dog.

Over sized, walking on their hocks, block heads, horrible hips and joint health, shallow chests, no drive, extra long coats, sloped backs, weak nerves and so on.

If you doubt me, I suggest you give Louis Donald a follow on Facebook. He is, without question, the breed expert and covers this topic extensively.

The split in the breed happened while Von Stephanitz was still alive and he lamented it publicly more than once.

At its core, the GSD is a robust, healthy, working dog built for power and purpose. It's a crying shame what's happened to this dog.

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Expounding on how big Murphy is, she is very tall. I'm 5" 1' and I can touch her back with the tips of my fingers when she is in a heel.

The thing is, even though she comes from Germanic lines, she is an "American" German Shepherd. And those dogs tend to be on the larger side (like our trucks ).

So is my dog standard? Absolutely not.

Is her grandsire a blah blah blah seventyleven blue ribbon winner? Yes.

I think confirmation is important for breeding. Breeders who include confirmation in their programs SHOW how good their dogs are. Not only by AKC/CKC standards, but they put their money where their mouth is. That's why I truly believe reputable breeders make next to nothing on puppy sales. The math just doesn't math.

Recently, I saw a thread about gate keeping breed standards on the doggy DNA subreddit. Lately, pit bulls have shown up in almost every mutt DNA test for dogs from shelters. There is no gate keeping for who gets a dog. I know my dog breeder doesn't give out her puppies to anyone. There is a screening process, you have to meet the parents, not to mention the fee! Additionally, she does everything she can to make sure her dogs don't end up in shelters. At any time, if you can't or won't care for your dog, she wants that dog back. She re-homes them herself. Any dog. Any age. Owning one of her dogs is a PRIVILEGE.

Additionally, breeders such as my own have such in depth knowledge about the breed. The only reason I knew about the things you mentioned in this post is because my breeder told me! I didn't know it, but I knew nothing about dogs when I bought Murphy, and she taught me what to look out for in a well bred dog.

My last brag on my breeder, is the assistance she gave me when Murphy was a very young puppy. Because I had never trained a dog before, I did the common look up training videos on YouTube to teach your dog tricks. One of the tricks that I myself didn't teach Murphy was stay. I just couldn't get it. One day I was talking to her in her kitchen and she taught Murphy the trick in 5 minutes. I was amazed and so thankful she took the time to show me how to train my dog, and also demonstrate that it wasn't the dog, it was me

That, to me, is dedication to the breed. And that, to me is more of what is needed in ALL dog breeds to control our overpopulation problem.

Several decades ago, GSD were not as regulated and they were the mutt nuisance in shelters. I think our breed has come a long way since then in regards better breeding programs, even though BYBs are still prolific and give our dogs a bad name. Looking at doggy DNA tests, you will still see poorly bred GSD mixes, because BYBs created damage that literally takes generations to be undone.

And I don't mean to say that people who don't have $5k to drop on a puppy don't deserve a GSD puppy. What I mean to say is that for a puppy that is DM clear, has healthy hips, and a proven line of longevity, $5k is actually cheap for the amount of thankless love and effort these breeders put into their dogs.

More thoughts on Pandas. They are seriously adorable.

But they come from one line of one panda shepherd. Which means anyone breeding them intentionally most likely is making seriously inbred dogs.

That's the problem with special coat colors, especially merle. They incentive BYB to inbreed dogs for a color over everything else- temperament, health, etc,. I feel this is sick because it does a huge disservice to the dogs. Purposely in breeding a dog is not only unethical, but the people who buy the dogs are not likely to have the support I did when buying Murphy. Their breeder probably isn't going to help them train their dog when behavioral issues come up. They also probably won't instill the importance of spay and neuter, which contributed to these inbred dogs spreading their funky genetics and making more shelter dogs. The whole thing makes me really sad.

murph said:

And I don't mean to say that people who don't have $5k to drop on a puppy don't deserve a GSD puppy. What I mean to say is that for a puppy that is DM clear, has healthy hips, and a proven line of longevity, $5k is actually cheap for the amount of thankless love and effort these breeders put into their dogs.

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Yes.

Personally, I don’t think panda should be recognized as an official AKC/CKC color. Not because the dogs aren’t beautiful, they are, but because conformation standards exist to preserve type, structure, and function, not to validate novelty. Nonstandard colors (or patterns like panda) don’t make a dog bad, but once registries start expanding standards around rare aesthetics, it tends to shift breeder incentives away from health, temperament, and working ability. We’ve seen how that story goes.

That said, I have zero issue with panda shepherds existing, being loved, trained, and worked. They can be fantastic dogs. I just think conformation rings should stay conservative by design, while sport, work, and companionship remain open to the individual dog in front of you.

Curious to hear where others land on it, this is one of those topics where nuance matters.

Another point I like to touch on is I think the breed standard weight is a bit out of date. Both WLGSDs and non-working types are averaging around 100lbs give or take for male dogs. I think the standard should reflect this reality. However, IMO once a dog starts getting over 100lbs they're either abnormally large or just flat out overweight.

I have Bomber down to one full meal a day and he looks outstanding. If I had to guess he's around 86, 87 lbs at almost a year old.

Honestly no one should care what AKC thinks of the breed/colors etc . They have caused more damage to this particular breed orthopedically than any good . Shepherds were never intended to have severe sloping backs that lead to significant orthopedic hip / back problems. If you look at the original shepherd it had a straight almost rounded back. The angle that AKC likes to see for their” trotting gait “ may look appealing but it has had devastating consequences to the orthopedics of the breed.
I have witnessed the horrific consequences of their “ breed” standard up close and that organization holds ZERO weight in my opinion . Please research where these dogs came from , what their purpose was , could a “AKC champion “ with the wrong hip angle actually function as a hoarding dog ( without doing more damaging harm ?) research what they actually should look like . AKC has traded beauty over functionality and has led to many of these beautiful animals to live with chronic life long pain. It’s a disgrace.

Heather said:

Honestly no one should care what AKC thinks of the breed/colors etc . They have caused more damage to this particular breed orthopedically than any good . Shepherds were never intended to have severe sloping backs that lead to significant orthopedic hip / back problems. If you look at the original shepherd it had a straight almost rounded back. The angle that AKC likes to see for their” trotting gait “ may look appealing but it has had devastating consequences to the orthopedics of the breed.
I have witnessed the horrific consequences of their “ breed” standard up close and that organization holds ZERO weight in my opinion . Please research where these dogs came from , what their purpose was , could a “AKC champion “ with the wrong hip angle actually function as a hoarding dog ( without doing more damaging harm ?) research what they actually should look like . AKC has traded beauty over functionality and has led to many of these beautiful animals to live with chronic life long pain. It’s a disgrace.

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Let her cook. Spot on.

MyDogBitz said:

Another point I like to touch on is I think the breed standard weight is a bit out of date. Both WLGSDs and non-working types are averaging around 100lbs give or take for male dogs. I think the standard should reflect this reality. However, IMO once a dog starts getting over 100lbs they're either abnormally large or just flat out overweight.

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I'll disagree with this. The breed should be on the smaller size. The larger size contributes to a lot of health problems, especially with hips and knees. My girl could be even better at her job if she was 15 - 20 lbs smaller. She runs around 80 - 82 lbs of solid muscle while her sisters are all in the low 60's. She was the smallest puppy in the litter but wound up being the same size as her brother. Genetics are a bitch and sometimes you get an outlier no matter how careful the breeder is, but I think the smaller size is more appropriate for the what they were originally bred to do and the jobs they do now. Part of the reason that the military and LE have moved to using more Mals is because the GSDs have gotten too large. I'd love to work a 50 - 60 lb female or 60 - 70 lb male.

PopeHolySmoke said:

I'll disagree with this. The breed should be on the smaller size. The larger size contributes to a lot of health problems, especially with hips and knees. My girl could be even better at her job if she was 15 - 20 lbs smaller. She runs around 80 - 82 lbs of solid muscle while her sisters are all in the low 60's. She was the smallest puppy in the litter but wound up being the same size as her brother. Genetics are a bitch and sometimes you get an outlier no matter how careful the breeder is, but I think the smaller size is more appropriate for the what they were originally bred to do and the jobs they do now. Part of the reason that the military and LE have moved to using more Mals is because the GSDs have gotten too large. I'd love to work a 50 - 60 lb female or 60 - 70 lb male.

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I don't disagree with you. I'm more or less commenting on what I'm seeing, even in well bred dogs.

MyDogBitz said:

I don't disagree with you. I'm more or less commenting on what I'm seeing, even in well bred dogs.

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I think it's become a problem with a lot of breeds. It seems, in the US at least, that people want larger dogs and instead of getting a breed that was bred to be the size they want, they want a larger version of whatever breed they like. With GSDs being consistently one of the most popular breeds, it's hitting this breed more quickly due to backyard breeders and even otherwise good breeders that don't pay attention to the SV / FCI standard.

PopeHolySmoke said:

I think it's become a problem with a lot of breeds. It seems, in the US at least, that people want larger dogs and instead of getting a breed that was bred to be the size they want, they want a larger version of whatever breed they like. With GSDs being consistently one of the most popular breeds, it's hitting this breed more quickly due to backyard breeders and even otherwise good breeders that don't pay attention to the SV / FCI standard.

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#shilohshepherd

PopeHolySmoke said:

I'll disagree with this. The breed should be on the smaller size. The larger size contributes to a lot of health problems, especially with hips and knees. My girl could be even better at her job if she was 15 - 20 lbs smaller. She runs around 80 - 82 lbs of solid muscle while her sisters are all in the low 60's. She was the smallest puppy in the litter but wound up being the same size as her brother. Genetics are a bitch and sometimes you get an outlier no matter how careful the breeder is, but I think the smaller size is more appropriate for the what they were originally bred to do and the jobs they do now. Part of the reason that the military and LE have moved to using more Mals is because the GSDs have gotten too large. I'd love to work a 50 - 60 lb female or 60 - 70 lb male.

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Wow. That is the story of my dog. Runt to 90 lbs in 3 years.

murph said:

Wow. That is the story of my dog. Runt to 90 lbs in 3 years.

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Based on her parents I thought I was going to get a nice sized 60 - 65 lb female. It quickly turned into you're gonna need a bigger crate. She's 48" from snout to rump which is the radius from a source that the dog has to indicate in for our HRD tests. The unit of measurement in our group quickly became 1 Vega.

PopeHolySmoke said:

I think it's become a problem with a lot of breeds. It seems, in the US at least, that people want larger dogs and instead of getting a breed that was bred to be the size they want, they want a larger version of whatever breed they like. With GSDs being consistently one of the most popular breeds, it's hitting this breed more quickly due to backyard breeders and even otherwise good breeders that don't pay attention to the SV / FCI standard.

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I was just having a conversation with a friend with how large, blocky, and dumpy the lab is becoming. My parents have had several over the years and they were all athletic, drivey dogs. The ones I'm seeing recently all look like cartoons of labs.